DR. MANILAL: Why did you choose Pondicherry as the place for your sadhana?
SRI AUROBINDO: Because of an Adesh, a Command. I was ordered by a Voice to come here. When I was leaving Bombay for Calcutta, I asked Lele what I should do about my sadhana. He kept silent for a while, probably waiting to hear a voice from within, and then replied, "Meditate at a fixed time and hear the voice in the heart."I didn't hear any voice from the heart but a quite different one from above, and dropped meditation at a fixed hour because meditation was going on all the time. When Lele came to Calcutta and heard about all this, he said to me, "The Devil has caught hold of you." I replied, "If it is the Devil, then I will follow him." The same Voice from above brought me to Pondicherry.
DR. MANILAL: We have heard that spirits used to come to you. The book Yogic Sadhan is said to have been written by the spirit of Keshab Sen.
SRI AUROBINDO: Keshab Sen? When I was writing it, always at the beginning and at the end the image of Ram Mohan Roy came before me. Somebody has evolved Keshab Sen out of Ram Mohan Roy. Do you know the origin of the name "Uttara Yogi" who is put as the author of the book?
DR. MANILAL: No, Sir.
SRI AUROBINDO: There was a famous Yogi in the South who, while dying, said to his disciples that a Purna (Integral) Yogi from the North (Uttara) would come down to the South and he would be known by three sayings. Those three sayings were
Page-3
DR. MANILAL: Did Lele have any realisation?
SRI AUROBINDO: Of course he had.
DR. MANILAL: It is said that Christ used to heal simply by a touch. Is such healing possible?
SRI AUROBINDO: Why not? There are many instances of such cures. No doubt, faith is necessary. Christ himself said, "Thy faith has made thee whole."
NIRODBARAN: Is faith always necessary?
SRI AUROBINDO: No, not always. Cures can be effected without faith, especially when one doesn't know what is being done. Faith is above mind, so any discussion or dispute spoils its action.
DR. MANILAL: Yes, I know of instances of cure or help by faith. When I first came to see you, you told me to remember you in any difficulty. I followed your advice and passed unscathed through many troubles. But when I came here again, I heard many conflicting things from people and didn't get the same result. I thought perhaps I couldn't open myself to you.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yours was what is known as simple faith. Some call it blind faith. When Ramakrishna was asked the nature of faith, he replied, "All faith is blind; otherwise it is not faith." And he was quite right.
DR. MANILAL: Is it because there is something in our nature or in the surrounding atmosphere that doubts come and the results are not as before?
SRI AUROBINDO: For both reasons. The physical mind has doubts inherent in it and they come up at one time or another. By contact with other people also, the faith gets obscured. I know one or two shocking instances in the Ashram itself Once a truthful man came to pay a visit. Someone told him that the habit of always speaking the truth was nothing but a superstition and that one must be free to say whatever one likes. There is another instance of someone advocating sex-indulgence. He said that it was not a hindrance to Yoga and that everybody must have his Shakti! When such ideas are spread, it is no wonder they cast a bad influence on people.
DR. MANILAL: Shouldn't those who broadcast these ideas be quarantined?
Page-4
SRI AUROBINDO: I thought of that. But it is not possible. The Mother tried at one time to impose restrictions and regulations; it didn't work. One has to change from within. There are, of course, other Yogic systems which enforce strict disciplines. Buddhism is unique in that respect. In France also there is a school which enjoins rigorous silence.
NIRODBARAN: Is exterior imposition good?
SRI AUROBINDO: It can be good, provided one sincerely keeps to it. In that school in France, for example, people who enter know what they want and so keep to the regulations meant to help their object. Here the object is different. Ours is a problem of world-change. People here are an epitome of the world. Each one represents a type of humanity. If he is changed, it means a victory for all who belong to his type and thus a great achievement for our work. But for this change a constant will is required. If that will is there, lots of things can be done for the man.
NIRODBARAN: We gather that sadhana was going on very well in the Ashram at the beginning and things became sluggish only afterwards.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, it is when the sadhana came down into the physical and subconscient that things became very difficult. I myself had to struggle for two years. For the subconscient is absolutely inert, like stone. Though my mind was quite awake above, it could not exert any influence down below. It is a Herculean labour. If I had been made to see it before, probably I would have been less enthusiastic about it. There is the virtue of blind faith! When one enters into the subconscient, it is like stepping on an unexplored continent. Previous Yogis came down to the vital level, they did not descend farther, and they were quite sensible in not doing so! But if I too had left it there, the real work would have remained undone. Once the subconscient is conquered, things will become easy for those who come after. That is what is meant by the "realisation of one in all".
NIRODBARAN: Then why should we take so much trouble? We can wait for that victory.
SRI AUROBINDO: You want an easy path?
DR. MANILAL: More than an easy path; we want to be carried about like a baby. Not possible, Sir?
SRI AUROBINDO: Why not? But you have to be a genuine baby!
Page-5
NIRODBARAN: Ramakrishna has said that one need not be like a drawn bow.
SRI AUROBINDO: Where has he said that? A Yogi has to be always vigilant, especially in the early part of his sadhana, otherwise all he has gained can come down with a thud. People usually don't make sadhana the one thing of their lives. They have two parts, one internal and the other external which goes on with its ordinary movements, social contacts, etc. Sadhana must be made the one central thing.
NIRODBARAN: You once spoke of the brilliant period of the Ashram.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, it was when sadhana was going on in the vital level. Then everything was joy, peace, Ananda. And if we had stopped there, we could have started a big religion or a vast organisation. But the real work would have been left unattempted and unachieved.
DR. MANILAL: Why did you retire? Was it to concentrate more on your work?
SRI AUROBINDO: No. It was in order to withdraw from the general physical atmosphere. If I had to do what the Mother is doing, I would hardly have found time to do my own work; besides, it would have entailed a tremendous labour.
NIRODBARAN: The Mother's coming must have greatly helped you in your -work and in your sadhana.
SRI AUROBINDO: Of course, of course. All my realisations- Nirvana and others - would have remained theoretical, as it were, so far as the outer world was concerned. It is the Mother who showed the way to. a, practical form. Without her, no organised manifestation would have been possible. She has been doing this kind of sadhana and work from her very childhood.
NIRODBARAN: Yes. We also find in the Mother's Prayers and Meditations a striking resemblance between your ideas and hers.
Page-6
NIRODBARAN: Is there no justice? Surely such people will have to pay the penalty of their actions? But how is it they are the ones who succeed in life?
SRI AUROBINDO: Justice in this life? May not be, most probably not. But what is justice? It is not what most people believe it to be. The common idea is that the virtuous will be rewarded with happiness and prosperity in the next life while the wicked will have the opposite results. In that case the people you speak of must have been virtuous in their previous birth. Well, that's not my idea of justice. There is true justice in the sense that the good people advance towards a Sattwic nature while those with the contrary disposition go down the scale of humanity: they become more and more Asuric. That is what I have said in the Arya.
At this moment the Mother came in. It was the time for her to go downstairs to the Meditation Hall and give a general meditation. Every evening before going down, she used to come and sit for a while in Sri Aurobindo's room, sometimes taking part in the conversation, sometimes meditating. Naturally during her meditation we used to keep quiet. As soon as she entered, she asked Sri Aurobindo with a smile, "Are they again making you talk?" Dr. Manilal put in promptly, "No, Mother, no. We want him to take rest." Everyone, including Sri Aurobindo, burst into laughter. When the noise had subsided, the Mother, seated as usual on the sofa, inquired, "What is the talk about?" Sri Aurobindo replied on our behalf, "They are asking if justice exists." The Mother opened her eyes very wide, and we again laughed. Sri Aurobindo then narrated in brief the incidents which had prompted our talk and the turn the talk had taken.
THE MOTHER: Of course, there is justice. Do you think these
people can have an easy and comfortable life? They can't; they
suffer, they are tormented, they are not happy within.
Page-7
NIRODBARAN: But that unhappiness does not seem to change them. They go from bad to worse.
THE MOTHER: Probably, but in some cases as the Divine pressure goes on acting on them, at one time or another, especially during some impending catastrophe, a sudden change takes place in them. We have seen a number of cases like that. For example, those -who were trying to persecute Sri Aurobindo when he first came here.
But by justice you mustn't mean that certain qualities will not get results favourable to them. Among those people whom you mention, one may be a scoundrel, but if he has capacity and cleverness he will surely succeed in life, for it is these qualities that meet with success, not always virtue or piety.
NIRODBARAN: To know how to cheat people and get their money—is it cleverness?
THE MOTHER: Of course it is; or you may say it is a misuse of cleverness. I don't say that this kind of cleverness will not have its consequences, but it can't be denied at the same time that people with such qualities succeed in life.
NIRODBARAN: You have said in your Prayers and Meditations that justice exists and one can't avoid the law of Karma except by the Divine Grace. Why doesn't one believe in this Grace?
THE MOTHER (after looking for some time with meditative eyes): Because the human mind arranges and combines things, accepts or eliminates them according to its own notion and judgment. It does not leave any room for the Grace. For instance, one is cured of a disease or passes an examination; one thinks it is due to medicine or one's effort. One doesn't see that in between these factors or behind them there may be the Grace acting on one. (Turning to Sri Aurobindo) Isn't that so?
SRI AUROBINDO: People would call it luck, I suppose, (Laughter)
THE MOTHER: If one does not recognise the Grace, how can it work? It is as if one had shut one's door against it. Of course, it can work from below, underneath, so to speak.
NIRODBARAN: Doesn't the Grace act unconditionally?
THE MOTHER: It does, especially on those who have been predestined for some definite work in life. Yes, the Grace is unconditional; but at the same time how will it work if a man is throwing it away or doesn't recognise it? It would be like constantly
Page-8
NIRODBARAN: Isn't it because we are ignorant that we don't recognise it?
THE MOTHER: No; I know many ignorant people who having received the Grace have expressed a deep gratitude welling up from the heart.
DR. MANILAL: We should like the Grace to act like a mother feeding her infant when it is hungry and supplying things when needed.
SRI AUROBINDO: And who is this infant here? (Loud laughter)
THE MOTHER: But the Grace does not work according to human standards or demands. It has its own law and its own way. How can it act otherwise? Very often what seems to be a great blow or calamity at the present moment may turn out to be a great blessing after ten years or so, and people say that their real life began only after that mishap.
(After a short pause in a half-withdrawn mood, then taking up the thread of the original topic) I am interested to see what will be the reactions of those people. The results may be different in each, but I can't say just now in what way.
NIRODBARAN: Will it be only a difference of degree?
THE MOTHER: No, a difference of quality also; for one may be more stupid and blind than another who may be conscious of what he is aiming at. So the former has less power to harm.
NIRODBARAN: Perhaps one of them may change for the better.
THE MOTHER: In what sense?
NIRODBARAN: He may turn to the divine life again.
THE MOTHER: That is romance!
NIRODBARAN: But Satyendra may come to the Ashram once more-since he was here a good number of years.
THE MOTHER {amused): Do you think so? When a man who has been given a chance deliberately turns his back on the Divine, he spoils his possibility. That he had a possibility is, on the other hand, shown by the fact that he was given a chance.
With these words the Mother left for the general meditation and we formed our usual ring around Sri Aurobindo. Dr. Manilal started the talk.
Page-9
Dr. Manilal began to expound the Jain law of Karma and ended by saying how even the Tirthankaras could not escape this rigorous law: they also had to pay in exact mathematical measures.
SRI AUROBINDO: It seems to be a great thing-but too wonderful and mathematical to be true! There was an illustration of this mathematical theory in the example of a son who, although he lived only for a short time, cost his father a great deal of money because of his ill-health. It was explained that the father had been the debtor of the son in his previous life and the son had realised by these expenses the exact amount of money he had lent to the father. Well, what do you say?
DR. MANILAL: No, Sir. That can't be the real explanation. Somebody must have cut a joke or exaggerated. There is what is called Vikacit Karma or Utkata Karma, which can't be avoided. It is like a knot which can't be untied.
SRI AUROBINDO: It may be then this Utkata Karma that caused my accident!
DR. MANILAL: Why this unmerited suffering in your case?
SRI AUROBINDO: How do you know it is unmerited? Perhaps it was to give me knowledge of intense pain. The pains I had experienced so far were of an ordinary nature which I could transform into Ananda. But this was intense. And since it came swiftly and suddenly, I could not change it into Ananda. But when
Page-10
DR. MANILAL: When will you be cured?
SRI AUROBINDO: I can't say and, even if I could, the hostile forces would at once rush up to prevent the cure. That is why I don't want to prophesy about anything. Not that things are not known beforehand or possibilities not seen. There are things about which I have definitely pronounced in advance. But where it is a question of possibilities, I don't tie myself down to any; for if I do that, I commit myself in advance to certain lines of movement and the result of them may not be what I wanted. Consequently I would not be able to bring down what I was striving for.
But plenty of people can prophesy and among Yogis that capacity is very common. When I was arrested, my maternal grand aunt asked Vishuddhananda, "What will happen to our Auro?" He replied, "The Divine Mother has taken him in her arms: nothing will happen to him. But he is not your Aurobindo, he is the world's Aurobindo and the world will be filled with his perfume." Narayan Jyotishi also, who did not know me, foretold my three trials, my white enemies and my release. When my horoscope was shown to him, he said there was some mistake about the time of my birth. When it was corrected, he remarked, "Ah, the lead is turned into gold now."
(Turning to Dr. Manilal) Have you had any prophetic dreams?
DR. MANILAL: Not as far as I remember, but Ambegaukar's daughter-in-law once said that she had seen him being carried to the burning ghat and exactly two hours later he died.
SRI AUROBINDO: That's a good instance.
DR. MANILAL: But, as in the case of you and Vishuddhananda, can one prophesy about a person without even knowing him?
SRI AUROBINDO: Why not? Prophesying is an intuitive power. I once tried to see a man whom we wanted to get appointed as Governor here. I saw a figure seated in an office, but a person totally unknown and quite different from the one we wanted. After some time, a quarrel broke out between my brother- in-law Bose and a Government official. He was summoned to the office, but the letter addressed to him bore by mistake the name
Page-11
On another occasion, a friend of C. R. was coming to. see me. I wanted to have a vision of the man. I saw a man with a clean-shaven head and a bull-dog face, but when he turned up it was a man with quite a different appearance—regular South Indian Brahmin features. But curiously enough, about two years later when I met him again I found that he had completely changed to what I had seen in my vision! These things are thrown out in this way from the subtle world to the surface consciousness.
Take another instance. I was in the past a great tea-addict; I could not do any work without my cup of tea. Now, the management of the tea was in the hands of my brother-in-law. He used to bring it any time he woke up from his sleep. One day I had a lot of work to do but couldn't get into it without the tea. I began to think, "When will he bring it, why doesn't he come?" So far I had never asked anybody for anything for myself. Suddenly I found that a particular time was written on the wall before me, and exactly at that time the tea was brought in.
DR. MANILAL: Is the consciousness of the Divine possible in even the physical cells?
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, the cells can have peace and joy and other things. When they are quite conscious, they can throw opposing forces out. When peace descends into the physical being, it is a great force for cure.
NIRODBARAN: Can one have peace without knowing it?
SRI AUROBINDO: That would be neutral peace, though it would be more than quietude. But there is a positive peace which one knows and feels. Truth also can descend into the physical — and power as well, but very few can bear power. There is a descent of light too.
There is an infinite sea of peace, power, Ananda just above the head—what we call "overhead". (Looking at Nirodbaran) And if one is in contact with it one can get these things always.
DR. MANILAL: Do any thoughts or suggestions come to you?
SRI AUROBINDO: How do you mean? Thoughts and suggestions come to me from every side and I don't refuse them. I accept them and see what they are like. But if you mean thinking, I never do that. Thinking ceased a long time ago—it has stopped ever since
Page-12
DR. MANILAL: Was the Arya with its thousands of pages written in this way?
SRI AUROBINDO: No, it was transmitted directly into the pen. It is a great relief to get out of the responsibility.
DR. MANILAL: Oh yes, Sir.
SRI AUROBINDO: I don't mean responsibility in general, but of thinking about everything. Some thoughts are given, some are reflected from above. It is not that I don't look for knowledge. When I want knowledge, I call for it. The higher faculty sees thoughts as if they were written on a wall.
DR. MANILAL: Vishuddhananda is said to be able to produce all sorts of smells, for which he has been known as Gandhibaba. Do you think it possible to do such things?
It is difficult to know if the smells are all materialisations or subtle smells projected into the physical or on the senses. Many people have experiences of subtle realities. Paul Brunton told us he was always aware of some Presence accompanying him but could not identify it. When he saw my photo it did not at all resemble his vision, but when he saw me at Darshan time he at once recognised me as the Presence.
DR. MANILAL: Why didn't he remain here if he had an opening to you and also admiration for you?
SRI AUROBINDO: We did not advise him to remain. The Mother, after a meditation with him, told him about some of his difficulties and he admitted she was right.
At one time I thought that physical Siddhi, spiritual power over matter, was impossible. But in the Alipore Jail I found once after my meditation that my body had taken a position which was physically impossible: it was actually raised some inches above the ground; there was what is known as levitation. Then again, I practised for a time raising my hands and keeping them suspended in the air without any muscular control. Once in that condition I fell asleep. The warder saw me in that posture and reported that
Page-13
There is a French author, Jules Remains, who is a mystic as well as a medical man. He can see with other parts of the body than the eyes. He says the eyes are only a specialised part; other parts can also be trained to see while the eyes remain closed. He even gave a demonstration to scientists; but they refused to admit its validity.
NIRODBARAN: Is there anything here? ;
SRI AUROBINDO (smiling) : Nothing much, except that he speaks of some light in the first poem.
NIRODBARAN: In the rest he speaks of losing the body-consciousness and of the world-memory getting fainter and fainter.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, but that means death. '
NIRODBARAN: Doesn't it mean that he is getting into another world? He speaks of stars, etc.
SRI AUROBINDO: Well, if he was getting into another world, why on earth doesn't he say so? The poem is hazy. The Vaishnava poets have clearly stated their experiences.
NIRODBARAN: Dilip told me that once Tagore in an agony of pain tried hard to concentrate and ultimately he separated himself from his pain and got relief. Isn't that a spiritual experience?
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, that is a spiritual experience.
NIRODBARAN: I remember also to have read in his autobiography, Jivan Smriti, that one day he felt a sudden outburst of joy and all Nature seemed to be full of Ananda. The outcome of that feeling or experience of bliss is supposed to be the poem "Nirjharer Swapna Bhanga" ("Interruption of the Dream of the Fountain").
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, that too is a spiritual experience. What does he say in the poem?
NIRODBARAN: He speaks of a fountain breaking all barriers and rushing towards the sea in Ananda.
Page - 14
SRI AUROBINDO: But why does he take that symbol? Was it in that symbolic form that the experience came?
NIRODBARAN: I don't think so.
SRI AUROBINDO: Then why doesn't he write the experience as he got it? Nobody reading the poem will realise that he wrote it from some experience. He has a tendency to be decorative, and the danger of decorativeness is that the main thing gets suppressed by it.
Take, as an opposite example, that line about Usha, the Mystic Dawn, from the Rig Veda, which I have quoted in The Future Poetry:
Vyucchanti jivam udirayanti usa mritam kancana bodhayanti.
Raising high the living, awakening someone dead.
When one reads it, one feels at once that it is written out of experience. It tells us directly of the Dawn-Goddess that she is raising higher and higher whatever is manifested and brings out all that has remained latent, unmanifested. Of course, one has to be familiar with the symbols; then the thing becomes quite clear.
NIRODBARAN: But mystic poetry is bound to be a little hazy and vague, at least to those who are not mystically minded. Tagore also has written simple and clear poems in his Gitanjali: for example, "Amar matha nata kare dao" ("Let my head bow down"). Perhaps one can write poetry of that kind mentally too. Is personal experience always necessary?
SRI AUROBINDO: No. One need not have personal experience for such poetry.
NIRODBARAN: You once compared mystic poetry to moon light and spiritual poetry to sunlight.
SRI AUROBINDO: No, I meant occult poetry to be like moonlight. There are two kinds of mystic poetry: occult-mystic and spiritual-mystic. That poem of mine, "Trance", with its moon and star, or my "Bird of Fire" is occult-mystic, while the sonnets are spiritual-mystic. For instance in the sonnet "Nirvana", I have put exactly what Nirvana is. One is at liberty to use any symbol or image, but what one says must be very clear through the symbol or the image. Say, for example, those lines from the Rig Veda:
Condition after condition is born,
Covering after covering becomes conscious;
In the lap of the Mother he sees.
Page-15
Here images are used but it is very clear to anyone knowing the symbols what is meant and that it is a result of genuine experience or take another example:
The Seers climb Indra like a ladder,
Along with the ascent all that remains to be done becomes clear.
It is an extraordinary passage, expressing perfectly the experience. Do you see that? Indra is the Divine Mind and, as one ascends higher and higher, whatever has still to be done grows visible and distinct. One who has had that experience can testify how perfectly true it is and that it must have been written from experience, not from any power of imagination.
NIRODBARAN: But sometimes cannot one write truly about spiritual things without experiencing them or being conscious of them?
SRI AUROBINDO: Why not? The inner being can have the vision and express it, without the outer having the least awareness of it.
NIRODBARAN: Can one who is not a mystic write mystic poems? Tagore — or Harin before he came here?
SRI AUROBINDO: Tagore had a tradition of religious tendencies in his family. Harin had a mystic part in him. Unfortunately, he had many other parts also. Reading his earlier poems I predicted that he could be a spiritual poet. As soon as he came here, he went on very well in the first year of his sadhana; his inner mind opened and the things he wrote about the Mother -were felt by him. His poetry was always associated with his higher parts.
The Mother came to Sri Aurobindo's room at about 6.00 p.m. and began to meditate. All of us started meditating with her. After half an hour or so she went away. Sri Aurobindo looked twice at Dr. Manilal who seemed to be struggling to meditate.
SRI AUROBINDO: (smiling): Meditating?
DR. MANILAL: (smiling back): Trying hard. Sir, but without success since last Wednesday when I had a splendid meditation. Many undesirable things come to disturb me.
SRI AUROBINDO: What are they?
Page-16
DR. MANILAL: Some nonsense.
SRI AUROBINDO: Some extraordinary nonsense like the thought of perpetual attendance on your Maharaja patron or of the likely successor to Mussolini?
DR. MANILAL: No, Sir. Thoughts of the Maharaja come very rarely. But why doesn't one succeed in meditation even after so much trying, while on some days it comes very suddenly?
SRI AUROBINDO: That happens often to everybody except those Yogis who make meditation their only business. And even they have their blank periods.
DR. MANILAL: I see my friend Nirodbaran goes at once into meditation and starts drooping his head.
NIRODBARAN: Yes, in despair. (Laughter)
SRI AUROBINDO: (to Nirodbaran): Do you go to sleep?
DR. MANILAL: Can one go to sleep in despair?
SRI AUROBINDO: As an escape, yes. There are some people who go to sleep standing. There was, for example, Rajnarayan Bose who would sleep standing, like a horse.
NIRODBARAN: Did he use to practise meditation?
SRI AUROBINDO: Meditation of some sort. (Turning to Nirodbaran) But you had a look of deep concentration on your face. Are appearances deceptive here?
DR. MANILAL: No, Sir. As he is a poet he lives in higher regions.
SRI AUROBINDO: What about Shakespeare's statement that poetry creates fictions, tells lies?
DR. MANILAL: He is not a poet of that sort. How is it that some people lose at once their consciousness in meditation, and their body sways this side and that, even falls to the ground?
SRI AUROBINDO: That happens with many. And that is why some Yogis bind themselves to a support to prevent falling. The Yogis who practise Asanas remain erect.
DR. MANILAL: How can one succeed in meditation?
SRI AUROBINDO: By quietude of mind. There is not only the Infinite in itself, but also an infinite sea of peace, joy, light, power above the head. The golden lid, Hiranmaya patram, intervenes between the mind and what is above the mind. Once you break this lid (making a movement of the hand above the head) they can come
Page-17
NIRODBARAN: Is there a veil in the heart also?
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, a veil or wall of the vital being with its surface consciousness and emotional disturbances. One has to break through that to what is behind the heart. In some people the Force works behind the veil because it would meet with many obstacles and resistances if it worked in front. It goes on building or breaking whatever is necessary till one day the veil drops off and one finds oneself living in the Infinite.
NIRODBARAN: Does the Force work all the time, even when there is no aspiration in the being?
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, in those who have an inner urge. The intermittent bouts of aspiration may be due to the action of the Force behind.
DR. MANILAL: We request you to tell us how to get all that peace, joy, light, power.
SRI AUROBINDO: The secret is to want it and nothing else. (Smiling) Too difficult, isn't it? Well then, you have to wait. Yoga demands patience. The old Yogas say that one has to wait for twelve years before one can hope to get any experience. Only after such waiting can one complain. But you once said that you had many experiences. You have no right to complain.
DR. MANILAL: True, Sir. I told you how meditation used to come spontaneously at Baroda at any time and I simply had to sit down to meditate, it used to come with such force! Occasionally it would come when I "was just about to go to the hospital, and the experiences of peace and of other things would last for days. And then came the period of lull: nothing happened at all. But surely meditation should visit us once a fortnight? Sometimes I feel a pull on the head upwards.
SRI AUROBINDO: Of course, it isn't the physical head. It is a happening in the subtle body, the mind trying to ascend towards the higher consciousness.
NIRODBARAN: One sees things like hills or seas in dreams or visions. What is their significance?
SRI AUROBINDO: They are symbols: the sea of energy and the hill of being with its different planes and parts, with the Divine at the summit. They are quite common. When one feels the
Page-18
DR. MANILAL: I have. Sir. I told you how I had found it and then lost it through fear. I felt as if I "were going to die.
SRI AUROBINDO: (laughing): Ah, I forgot that tragedy!
DR. MANILAL: At one time I felt as if my head were lying at the Mother's feet. What does that mean. Sir?
SRI AUROBINDO: It is the experience of the psychic being. So you had the psychic experience.
DR. MANILAL: But unfortunately I couldn't recognise it. (Laughter)
SRI AUROBINDO: It is this "I" that comes in the way. One must forget it, as if the experiences were happening to somebody else. If one could do this, it would be a great conquest. When I had the experience of Nirvana, I forgot myself completely. I was a sort of nobody. What's the use of Dr. Manilal So-and-so living with this "I"? If in discovering your inner being, you had even died, it would have been a glorious death.
DR. MANILAL: What happens when the human consciousness is replaced by the divine consciousness?
SRI AUROBINDO: One feels a perpetual calm, a perpetual strength, one is aware of Infinity and lives not only in Infinity but also in Eternity. One feels Immortality and does not care about the death of the body. And then one has the consciousness of the One in all. Everything becomes the manifestation of the Brahman. For instance, as I look round this room, I see everything as the Brahman. No, it is not mere thinking, it is a concrete experience. Even the wall, the books are the Brahman. I see you no more as Dr. Manilal but as the Divine living in the Divine. It is a wonderful experience.
Time about 5.30 p.m.; silent atmosphere, Dr. Manilal meditating, Nirodbaran sitting by his side. Sri Aurobindo cast a glance at Dr. Manilal. After a few minutes Nirodbaran tried to kill a mosquito and made a clapping sound. Sri Aurobindo looked at him. Dr. Manilal opened his eyes. Nirodbaran felt both embarrassed and amused.
Page - 19
DR. MANILAL: You make such a noise to kill a mosquito!
NIRODBARAN: I am sorry to have spoiled your meditation.
DR. MANILAL: Meditation can't be spoiled. We shall meditate when the Mother comes. (Laughter)
DR. MANILAL: The Theosophists speak of Mahatmas from whom they receive messages.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, Morya and Koothoomi are two of their Mahatmas. The Mahatmas are said to be living some- where in Bhutan among Rishis who are thousands of years old, I hear.
DR. MANILAL: Not true? You wrote, a long time ago, a poem on Koothoomi in the Standard-Bearer. From it we have thought of a being with great spiritual realisation.
SRI AUROBINDO: It was purely a play of the poetic imagination.
DR. MANILAL: What do you think of Madame Blavatsky?
SRI AUROBINDO: She was a remarkable woman.
DR. MANILAL: Were you ever a freemason?
SRI AUROBINDO: My eldest brother was. I gathered that there was nothing in it. But it certainly had something when it was first started.
Have you heard of Cagliostro? He was a mystic freemason with a great prophetic power. He never charged anyone any money and yet he was affluent. It was said he could make gold. He prophesied about the French Revolution, the taking of the Bastille and the guillotining of the King and Queen. He used to prophesy about race-horses too. This got him into trouble. He was imprisoned and died in prison.
(After a few minutes' silence) Have you heard of Nostradamus? No? He was a Jew. At that time the Jews had a lot of knowledge. He wrote a book of prophecy in an obscure language and foretold, among other things, the execution of Charles I, the establishment of the British Empire and the lasting of the Empire for 330 years.
NIRODBARAN: Then there is a long time before it goes.
SRI AUROBINDO: No. It is to be counted from the beginning of Britain's colonies. That means from James I. In that case it should end now.
Page-20
DR. MANILAL: Judging from Chamberlain's utterance lately, it looks as if Britain were not obliged to side with France in case of war.
SRI AUROBINDO: The English always keep their policy open so that they may change according as they like or want.
DR. MANILAL: But they can't join Germany or Italy, can they?
SRI AUROBINDO: Why not? They can share with them France's African colonies.
At this time the Mother came in. Seeing her, we changed our positions from near Sri Aurobindo's bed.
THE MOTHER: Don't move, don't move!
DR. MANILAL: Mother, we have decided to meditate when you come.
The Mother opened her eyes wide and all of us laughed.
THE MOTHER: But if I want to hear the talk?
DR. MANILAL: Then, of course, we shall talk.
SRI AUROBINDO: (to The Mother): I am giving the doctor a few prophecies of Cagliostro and Nostradamus whom he has never heard of.
Then Buddhism came in as a topic.
NIRODBARAN: Lokanath Bhikshu, an Italian convert, tried to call me back from here. I found him rather illogical.
SRI AUROBINDO: All preachers are illogical. Were you a fervent Buddhist? Is there much Buddhism where you come from?
NIRODBARAN: There are about one or two million Buddhists, but there is practically nothing of Buddhism.
THE MOTHER: Is Northern or Southern Buddhism professed?
NIRODBARAN: Southern.
THE MOTHER: In China and Japan too no real Buddhism is found-only ceremonies. In Ceylon, they say, there is still some authentic Buddhism.
NIRODBARAN: Also in Burma nothing authentic remains, I am told, but the Burmese people show a great respect for their Bhikshus.
Page-21
DR. MANILAL : Yes, respect for the appearance and not for the reality.
SRI AUROBINDO: Lele also used to think that the appearance has some value. Once I met X with him. He asked me, "Why don't you bow down to him?" I replied that I didn't believe in the man. He said, "But you must respect the yellow robe."
As THE MOTHER had gone into meditation all of us tried to meditate with her. At about 7.00 she departed and we gathered again round Sri Aurobindo's bed.
SRI AUROBINDO (addressing Nirodbaran): You seem to have had Ananda in your meditation. Your face is beaming.
DR. MANILAL: Yes, Sir. NIRODBARAN nowadays beams with Ananda.
NIRODBARAN: I fell into deep sleep, I think. But I had also some visions which seemed to be quite distinctly outside me.
SRI AUROBINDO: Then why do you call it sleep? It may be the psychic being or the inner being watching what was happening. Sometimes one goes into a deep state and remembers nothing of the outer consciousness though many things may be occurring on the surface. What is called dreamless sleep is really a sleep where many dreams are passing on, only one doesn't know of them. Sometimes one discusses important problems in such a condition. At other times, one gets the ecstasy of union with the Divine. One may also go into other worlds with a part of one's being and meet all kinds of forms. This is, of course, the first stage and a kind of beginning of Samadhi.
From what you describe, it may be an inner-being experience and not a psychic one. Even then, there is no doubt that your face is beaming with Ananda. It is on seeing it like this that I thought you had gone within.
NIRODBARAN: Can one get diagnoses of diseases in such a state?
SRI AUROBINDO: Oh yes. Many people are said to have had their problems solved when they had gone within. I remember a peculiar experience of mine. As I was meditating, I saw some writings crossing above my head. Then a blank. Then again those writings with a gap in the middle which meant that things were going on though I was not conscious of them.
(Addressing Dr.Manilal) Now what about your meditation?
DR. MANILAL: Not successful. Sir!
Page-22
SRI AUROBINDO: How? I saw you grim and powerful, wrestling your way towards the Brahman. {Loud laughter)
DR. MANILAL: Plenty of thoughts invaded me: I tried to reject them and make myself empty.
SRI AUROBINDO: And the result was emptiness?
NIRODBARAN: But that is meditation, surely?
DR. MANILAL: No, no, it isn't. I couldn't go within. I didn't feel the pressure. Was it meditation. Sir?
SRI AUROBINDO: That is the beginning, the first stage. The mind must first be quiet for other things to come down. But onemust not dictate to the meditation what it should or should not be. One must accept whatever it brings. Do you always have to try to meditate?
DR. MANILAL: Not always. I have told you that sometimes it visits me all on a sudden and then I have to sit down. But was I right in saying what I did just now? I said that I was able to reject thoughts.
SRI AUROBINDO (laughing): How do I know? You are the man to know it. I was only making comments on your statements.
DR. MANILAL: You don't know? We consider you omniscient.
SRI AUROBINDO: You don't expect me, surely, to know how many fishes the fishermen of Pondicherry have caught or how much money they have made out of the catch. People from Bombay used to ask me if the price of cotton would go up, if this or that horse would win a race and if the child they had lost would be found again. What's the use of knowing all these things? You must have heard Ramakrishna's story of a Sannyasin's river-crossing by occult power. Of course, if necessary, one can know all those things in a Swapna Samadhi. Besides, I am not occupied with details of occult working. I have left them to THE MOTHER. She often hears what is said at a distance, meets sadhaks on the subtle planes, talks to them. She saw exactly what was going to happen in the recent European trouble. We know whatever we have to know for our work.
NIRODBARAN: What puzzles me is that you have never told me anything when I have asked you about the condition of a patient or my diagnosis of his complaint.
SRI AUROBINDO: Why do you expect me to do your work?
NIRODBARAN: Oh, that's different. But you said you have no latent medico in you and hence you couldn't say anything. I thought you could by your intuition.
Page-23
Then the talk drifted to the subject of intuition and doctors getting their diagnoses in sleep. Nirodbaran mentioned The Mother's advice to him to get intuition through silence of the mind. The results were discussed.
SRI AUROBINDO (addressing Dr.Manilal): I was telling you we know what we have got to do. But it is not always good to know. For instance, if I know a thing is going to happen, I am bound to it and even if it is not what I -want I have to accept it and this prevents my having a greater or another possibility. So I want to keep myself free and deal with various possibilities. Below the Supermind everything is a question of possibilities. Hence I keep myself free to accept or reject as I like. Destiny does not mean that a thing is fixed. It is just a sum of forces which can be changed.
NIRODBARAN: Without knowledge of the thing, how will one work? After knowing, can't one reject?
SRI AUROBINDO: Knowledge comes by intuition. One can reject, but the result is not sure, though one's failure may show the way to a later success.
DR. MANILAL: You have said that you have conquered the death which comes by a natural process but that you have no complete control over accidents.
SRI AUROBINDO :Where did I say that?
NIRODBARAN: If I remember rightly, you wrote to me that diseases can't end your life but still you can't wholly control accidents.
SRI AUROBINDO: Oh! Diseases usually run a long course, so one has time to act on them. But if there are diseases of a sudden or severe nature that can end one's life immediately, then conquest is not possible. And about accidents, the body has its own consciousness and is always alert. But if the mind is occupied with other things, an accident can take one unaware. As regards violence—for example, a riot-I would have to concentrate for four or five days in order to protect myself.
The hostile forces have tried many times to prevent things like the Darshan, but I have succeeded in warding off all their attacks. At the time the accident to my leg happened, I was more occupied with guarding The Mother and I forgot about myself. I didn't think the hostiles would attack me. That was my mistake. As for the Ashram, I have been extremely successful, but while I have tried to work on the world the results have been varied. In Spain, in Madrid, I was splendidly successful. General Miaja was an admirable
Page-24
NIRODBARAN: Did you stop war the last time there was a chance of it?
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes - for many reasons war was not favourable at that time.
NIRODBARAN: But you stopped it at the cost of the humiliation of some great Powers.
SRI AUROBINDO: I didn't care for that.
NIRODBARAN: What do you think of the Sino-Japanese War?
SRI AUROBINDO: I don't think much of either party. They are six of one and half-dozen of the other. Both too materialistic. But if I were to choose, I would side with Japan, for Japan at one time had an ideal. The power of the Japanese for self-sacrifice, patriotism, self-abnegation and silence was remarkable. They would never lose their temper in front of anybody, though perhaps they might stab afterwards. They could work so silently and secretly that no one knew anything before the Russo-Japanese War broke out. All of a sudden it broke out. The Japanese are Kshatriyas, and their aesthetic sense is of course well known. But European influence has spoiled all that, and see now how brutal they have become—a thoroughly un-Japanese thing. Formerly they could look upon their opponents with sympathy. Look at. Japanese sentries boxing European officers. Not that the latter don't deserve it. Look also at the Japanese commander challenging Chiang-Kai-Shek to come out into the open field. This sort of bragging is not at all truly Japanese.
NIRODBARAN: But, without brutalities like the killing of innocent citizens, won't it be difficult for them to win the war?
SRI AUROBINDO: God knows! The Japanese are such fine warriors, such a patriotic and self-sacrificing nation, that one would believe the contrary. But they are doing these things probably because of two supposed reasons: first, financial shortage, which is not a very convincing reason since they have an immense power of sacrifice; second, the population of China.
Page-25
NIRODBARAN: And foreign help to China - for example, from the Soviet Union?
SRI AUROBINDO: That's a possibility, but the internal condition of the Soviet Union is such that it can't think of givingexternal help to others.
NIRODBARAN: What about India's independence? Is it developing along your lines?
S<span style="font-variant: small-caps">RI </span>A<span style="font-variant: small-caps">UROBINDO</span>: Surely not. India is now going towards European Socialism, which is dangerous for her, whereaswe were trying to evolve the genius of the race along Indian lines andall working for independence. Take the Bengal Movement. The whole country was awakened within a short time. People who were cowards and trembled at the sight of a revolver were in a short period so much changed that the police officials used to say, "That insolent Barisal look!" It was the soul of the race that awoke, throwing up very fine personalities. The leaders of the Movement were either Yogis or disciples of Yogis-men like Monoranjan Guha Thakurtha, the disciple of Bejoy Goswami.
NIRODBARAN:Was he a Nationalist?
SRI AUROBINDO: Good Lord! He was my fellow-worker and also took part in the Secret Society. Then there were others, like Brahmabandhav Upadhyaya. The influence of Ramakrishna and Vivekananda worked from. behind. The Movement and the Secret Society became so formidable that in any other country with a political past they would have led to something like the French Revolution. The sympathy of the whole nation was on our side. Even shopkeepers were reading Jugantar. I'll tell you an instance. While a young man was fleeing after killing a police officer in Shyam Bazar, he forgot to throw away his revolver. It remained in his hand. One shopkeeper cried out, "Hide your revolver, hide your revolver!" And, of course, you have heard of Jatin Mukherji?
DR. MANILAL: Yes, Sir.
SRI AUROBINDO: A wonderful man. He was a man who would belong to the front rank of humanity anywhere. Such beauty and strength together I haven't seen, and his stature was like a warrior's. Then there was Pulin Das.
NIRODBARAN: Pulin Das, I hear, turned out to be a spy.
SRI AUROBINDO: A spy? I don't believe it. He may have become a Moderate but not a spy. Such were the leaders at that time, and look at Bengal now!
Page-26
NIRODBARAN: What about Gandhi's Movement?
SRI AUROBINDO: Gandhi has taken India a great step forward towards freedom, but his Movement has touched only the upper middle classes while ours comprised even the lower middle classes.
NIRODBARAN: Has it diminished the spirit of revolution?
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes.
NIRODBARAN: Was it Anderson, the Governor of Bengal, who killed the revolutionary movement?
SRI AUROBINDO: Certainly not. It was the Force behind that receded and people became corrupted. No such leaders as before were forthcoming.
NIRODBARAN: Is the last terrorist movement a part of the one of 1905?
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, it is the remnant of that.
NIRODBARAN: During the war of 1914-1918 the revolutionaries were perhaps deceived by British promises.
SRI AUROBINDO: Oh no, the revolutionaries are not people to be deceived by promises.
NIRODBARAN: Gandhi seems to have given much courage and strength to the people. In Bengal we were so afraid of the police. I think it was Gandhi who imparted strength there.
SRI AUROBINDO: Did Bengal need it?
NIRODBARAN: What do you think of C. R. Das?
SRI AUROBINDO: He was the last of the old group. He came here and wanted to be a disciple. I said he wouldn't be able to go through in Yoga as long as he was in the political movement. Besides, his health was shattered. I restored it to a certain extent. but there was a relapse when he went back. You know he became Anukul Thakur's disciple.